Curse

mazey vorstagg · Jan 10, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I landed on both Shiro's and Abbadon's page today on guildwiki in my normal lunchtime random-page session. It got me thinking, because Abbadon is shown to be the big bad guy behind the first three campaigns. I'm just wondering what his plan was. As far as I know it's something like this:

In Tyria:
The city of the Gods was Arah which is situated in Orr, he hates the gods for imprisoning him and so wants his revenge. He directs the Titans to the Charr where they mascarade as gods and insight an invasion. His only real target is Orr, but he has to go through Ascalon to reach it. So: The charr invade Ascalon and reach Orr. Now it's time for the second part of Abbadon's plan, his deamon servent in disguise as an Orrian advises the Vizier to defend his city using an ancient magic in Arah. The vizier casts the spell and causes the Cataclysm. Hooray, phase one complete. Arah is destroyed.

In Cantha:
This is the bit I can't figure out his motives for. Prior to the destruction of Arah he plants a fortune teller to corrupt and manipulate Shiro. We know most of this because we saw it in flashbacks. So, Shiro is tricked into killing the Emporer and is then subsequently killed causing the Jade Wind.
Yes it may have changed the land of Cantha forever and killed and Emporer but what did it achieve? Did it somehow help to weaken his bonds, or is he just trying to cause chaos for no reason?

In Prophecies:
Glint foretells the flameseeker prophecies and causes the sequence of events in the first chapter. Most arn't Abbaddon related, but. The Lich Lord (Vizier) after destroying Orr then gains control of the titans (which are Abbadon's servants) through use of the scepter of orr and sends them to destroy all the majors cities in the world. Although at this point he's not working with Abbadon, he's working for himself I think. When we kill him he's sucked through the gate into The Foundry of Failed Creations and there meets the the big A and is offered a place as one of his generals.

In Factions:
Not much to tell as now Shiro is working on his own too. When we kill him the envoys (rather stupidly) take his soul to the RoT where he meets Abbaddon and is offered a place as another general.

In Nightfall:
General Kyjet (by some unknown means) is a follower of the forgotten god Abbadon and teaches her pupil Varesh of him. Varesh then embraces Mr A's power and becomes a deamon. Abbadon tells her that to free him she must convert the land to torment. she performs several rituals which succeed in bringing torment half into the real world, luckily the heroes defeat the heralds before the land is consumed. Then Varesh heads to the ruins of Morah where, presumably, she can free Abbadon. But the heroes stop the ritual by killing Varesh. Phew the world is saved.
Even with Elona safe we head into the RoT to stop the problem at it's source. We kill the Lich and Shiro (again) and finally finish Abbadon.

So, after that wall of text I come to my questions. Is there some sort of connecting plan between the three chapters? In the first I can see why Abbadon would want to get revenge on Arah. His doings in Cantha are lost to me and NF is a final attempt to free himself. But surely he could have just done NF without destroying Arah or killing the Emperor? Did the moment to free himself not come along until NF, so he was just trying to cause general chaos in the world above?

And one more thing. Are the Ancient Dragons older and more powerful than the gods? The gods created Tyria didn't they, so they can't be? Wouldn't a better way to destroy Tyria be to wake the Ancient Dragons? or did Abbadon not know of their existence.

Ok, last thing. Were Dhumm and Menzies Abbadon's helpers all along, or did they only join his side in NF.

Ok, lots to discuss!

Fangclaw · Jan 10, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I can only answer one of your questions; the one regarding the Lich Lord and Shiro Tagachi.

In Prophecies: He made the Titans pose as gods for the Charr so they in turn would destroy Arah. He was able to destroy it with the help (willing or not) of Vizier Khilbron.

I think his plans were to both destroy Arah AND get a general at the same time, though it is possible that the Vizier becoming a Lich was an accident... In any case, Abaddon did get his hands on him.

In Factions: I think he wanted revenge on the whole world, not just against Arah... He didnt want to leave Cantha alone just because its far from both Tyria and Elona.

my guess is he did just as he did on Tyria, but inversely. he made sure Shiro Tagachi would become one of his generals (through the use of a demonic agent)AND corrupted the land through both the Jade Wind and the Plague that came afterwards.

Aubis · Jan 10, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Here what I think abaddon was like mad at the gods so he plan his return with the little magic he had left kill the cathina emporer in a major event for Dwayna but if aslo know that a attack doing this event who make the jade wind destorying the forest which is a major Melandru area and the jade sea is a major sign of his power from the Torment Realm. And destroyed the city of arah to make the rest of the gods mad.

Fangclaw · Jan 11, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

I think that was more of an accident then a real attempt to harm the gods through Cantha. Didnt he do enough by destoying their city? I think he just wanted a new general, didnt want to leave Cantha untouched, or maybe didnt count with Shiro's powers...

But its possible that he had planned the Jade Wind as well, though this is unlikely.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 24, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Here are my thoughts on the topic:

Tyria: Started up the Charr vs Humans war because humans seem *to me* to be the god's favorite creation in the world. Also, promted Vizier Khilbron to destroy Arah as an attack against the otehr gods. Also, through the lich's motives, attempt to destroy the cities of Tyria *an attack on the god's creation is an attack on the gods basically*

Cantha: Corrupted Shiro to kill the emporer *possibly hoping to throw the Canthan governments into chaos* while the emporer was giving a tribute to Dwayna*which was the purpose of the Harvest Ceremony* which made an attack on Dwayna, who is the "leader" of the gods *of what I understand*

Elona: He just corrupted Varesh and her general to break himself out of his prison to start a second war upon the gods.

I think that gaining Shiro and the Lich as generals were just simply a back-up plan. I don't think abaddon intended for Shiro and the Lich to die *at least so soon*.

Vicks · Jan 24, 2008, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Ah, mazey I think I see what you're missing as far as Cantha is concerned.

As far as you can tell, he's "just trying to cause chaos", right? Well it isn't as, "oh he's JUST causing chaos", it's more like, "OH MY GOD he's causing chaos!"

The more chaos there is in the world, the weaker his bonds are. I presume it has something to do with the realm of torment being practically made out of chaos or something, so spreading it around strengthens the connection between the dimensions and probably weakens the overall structure of the realm.

Bergil · Jan 31, 2008, 01:46 AM // 01:46

As I see it, his plan went like this.

Phase 1- the Canthan Empire is strong, but it's far away from the Tyrian continent, and therefore, his reemergence. He planned to take out Emperor Angsiyan, and thus cause Cantha to fall apart, preventing them from fighting against him when he got out. Shiro was just a cat's-paw, to make the murder untraceable.

Phase 2- use Khilbron, who served Abbadon knowingly, to take out Orr, the nearest kingdom to the Mouth of Torment and a symbol of the Five Gods. He would then become The Lich, someone powerful enough to control the advance force of Titans that Abbadon would send through the Door of Komalie and command the first large-scale battle and try to carry out some of the rituals to get Abbadon out.

Phase 3- get someone inside an Elonan government, complete the rest of the rituals, and get him out. Abbadon would then launch a full-scale military invasion and conquer the world. He probably thought out the rest of the plan, but never got to try it.

In factions, Shiro was not acting on behalf of Abbadon, he was supposed to be used then discarded. however, after his death, Abbadon recruits him.

Of course, this is all conjuncture.

As for why he didn't try to use the dragons, we don't know enough about them to say for sure, but most likely they can't be reasoned with, and he'd have to fight them if he woke them up. Humans die easier.

Sleeper Service · Jan 31, 2008, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Abbadon is using souls to power stuff in NF (the dam in the river of souls yadda yadda)

driving shiro mad was only the first step of his plan, shiro killing the emperor , the jade sea disaster etc did not matter. All Abbaddon wanted was a crazy insane Shiro.

Now comes the good bit: Once Shiro dead, he becomes an Envoy (how is a bit of a puzzle...) and an Envoys job is to uh "guide the souls of the newly departed to..." Except Shiro having become the crazy ranting madman that we know was really working for Abbaddon, so he wasnt guiding the souls anywhere but to (im assuming) the Realms of Torment.

mrmango · Jan 31, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bergil

Phase 1- the Canthan Empire is strong, but it's far away from the Tyrian continent, and therefore, his reemergence. He planned to take out the emperor, and thus cause Cantha to fall apart, preventing them from fighting against him when he got out. Shiro was just a cat's-paw, to make the murder untraceable.

Phase 2- use Khilbron, who served Abbadon knowingly, to take out Orr, the nearest kingdom to the Mouth of Torment and a symbol of the Five Gods. He would then become The Lich, someone powerful enough to control the advance force of Titans that he would send through the Door of Komalie and command the first large-scale battle and try to carry out some of the rituals to get Abbadon out.

Phase 3- get someone inside an Elonan government, complete the rest of the rituals, and get him out, then launch a full-scale military invasion and conquer the world. He probably thought out the rest of the plan, but never got to try it.

As for why he didn't try to use the dragons, we don't know enough about them to say for sure, but most likely they can't be reasoned with, and he'd have to fight them if he woke them up. Humans die easier.

I respond to the bolded parts.
1. Shiro was only to kill a royal person to complete his ritual. That is, to be able to become mortal again. That's all. Otherwise he wouldn't have killed togo alone.
2.This is a bit more unclear lore-wise, but the Lich got the titans FROM the door of komalie, he wouldn't want to go into the Realm of Torment for any reason. Then he would crush the rest of Tyria, and probably do something after that to help get Abaddon out.
3. If Abaddon got out, they Elonians/Tyrians (collectively for the whole world of Tyria) would need the Gods' help to stop him..

Finally, the dragons are most likely not under his control, I'd guess they're stronger than him, or at least independent from the Gods' influence.

Sunyavadin · Jan 31, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

I respond to the bolded parts.
1. Shiro was only to kill a royal person to complete his ritual. That is, to be able to become mortal again. That's all. Otherwise he wouldn't have killed togo alone.

I think you're confusing what Shiro did under Abaddon's influence centuries ago with the plot of Factions. He was supposed to take out the Emperor, and he succeeded. THAT was Abaddon's plan. What happened in Factions may or may not have been connected to Abaddon's ideas.

I DO like the idea that Shiro becoming an envoy was connected to ferrying souls to the realm of Torment. It would show even more long term thinking, whilst also implying that Shiro's return in Factions was either
a) Shiro acting as a free agent of his own accord, taking the souls Abaddon wanted and using them for his own purposes

or

b) Shiro acting as Abaddon's backup plan, in case the Lich and Titans failed, so that the Afflicted and Shiro'ken would act as his army instead.

It's a good hypothesis, lets see what we can find in the Factions and NF stories to back it up or contradict it.

mrmango · Jan 31, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Well it's already known from the Realm of Torment quests, from Gate of Fear I think, that Shiro was corrupted by the fortune teller. When he came back as an envoy and did all the factions business, the reason for that is unknown and probably not in anything in GW atm.

Sleeper Service · Jan 31, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunyavadin

I think you're confusing what Shiro did under Abaddon's influence centuries ago with the plot of Factions. He was supposed to take out the Emperor, and he succeeded. THAT was Abaddon's plan. What happened in Factions may or may not have been connected to Abaddon's ideas.

I DO like the idea that Shiro becoming an envoy was connected to ferrying souls to the realm of Torment. It would show even more long term thinking, whilst also implying that Shiro's return in Factions was either
a) Shiro acting as a free agent of his own accord, taking the souls Abaddon wanted and using them for his own purposes

or

b) Shiro acting as Abaddon's backup plan, in case the Lich and Titans failed, so that the Afflicted and Shiro'ken would act as his army instead.

It's a good hypothesis, lets see what we can find in the Factions and NF stories to back it up or contradict it.

Im thinking it was supposed to time more or less like it did, a KEY component to his eventual release.

With war breaking out in the the Prophesies region, Titans running rampant , All out war in Elona, and in Cantha the Kurzick VS Luxon VS Plague results in...murder on a continental scale.

and with Shiro guiding all these souls thats a lot of raw power to be tapped into.

Im still convinced that Glint was behind a part of this.

All the "prophesies" we have seen were not visions of the future, they were plans laid out which would have never occurred if they hadn't been prophesied in the first place.

So either those visions were planted into Glints mind by Abbadon and thus was manipulated.

OR

Glint and Abbadon have been working together for a long long time.

lore tends to point to the first option, after all she helps us kill off the big boss Titans (or does she send us to fight them expecting our defeat?)

I dunno, i dont trust her. Its hard to imaging that Glint would be anything but impervious to mind manipulation but then again Abbadon is a god. on the other hand we KILLED that "god" so....

razerbeak · Jan 31, 2008, 03:53 AM // 03:53

So Sleeper, you think GW2 will have all the Dragons be corrupt and evil, not just the ancient ones?

Also, Menzies and Dhuum were most likely mad at the gods before Abaddons return because of the way they were stripped of their powers and status. They most likely joined him of their own accord to get back at Grenth, Balthazar and the others.

Sunyavadin · Jan 31, 2008, 02:31 PM // 14:31

I lean more to the idea that Glint was able to get a vague insight into Abaddon's plans, but not enough to understand them fully. It's possible he was manipulating her subtly, it would not be the first time in fiction that the villain has known someone can see what he is planning and so has woven them into the plan. The existence of the flameseeker prophecies in effect created the flameseeker. It does seem as if Glint's vision of the events laid out a chain of events for the Lich to follow.
I'm not sure about Glint being a willing participant, I'd say it's more likely Abaddon simply showed her what he wanted her to see. As god of secrets, that sort of thing should be no problem.

Nemo the Capitalist · Jan 31, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Heres my take

Anet did a bad job at story telling

*curse that fortune teller* Shrio was so promising too Slew 100+ Am Fahn

Sleeper Service · Jan 31, 2008, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sunyavadin

I lean more to the idea that Glint was able to get a vague insight into Abaddon's plans, but not enough to understand them fully. It's possible he was manipulating her subtly, it would not be the first time in fiction that the villain has known someone can see what he is planning and so has woven them into the plan. The existence of the flameseeker prophecies in effect created the flameseeker. It does seem as if Glint's vision of the events laid out a chain of events for the Lich to follow.
I'm not sure about Glint being a willing participant, I'd say it's more likely Abaddon simply showed her what he wanted her to see. As god of secrets, that sort of thing should be no problem.

that makes sense, yup i can go with that.

IslandHermet · Jan 31, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazey vorstagg

I landed on both Shiro's and Abbadon's page today on guildwiki in my normal lunchtime random-page session. It got me thinking, because Abbadon is shown to be the big bad guy behind the first three campaigns. I'm just wondering what his plan was. As far as I know it's something like this:

In Tyria:
The city of the Gods was Arah which is situated in Orr, he hates the gods for imprisoning him and so wants his revenge. He directs the Titans to the Charr where they mascarade as gods and insight an invasion. His only real target is Orr, but he has to go through Ascalon to reach it. So: The charr invade Ascalon and reach Orr. Now it's time for the second part of Abbadon's plan, his deamon servent in disguise as an Orrian advises the Vizier to defend his city using an ancient magic in Arah. The vizier casts the spell and causes the Cataclysm. Hooray, phase one complete. Arah is destroyed.

In Cantha:
This is the bit I can't figure out his motives for. Prior to the destruction of Arah he plants a fortune teller to corrupt and manipulate Shiro. We know most of this because we saw it in flashbacks. So, Shiro is tricked into killing the Emporer and is then subsequently killed causing the Jade Wind.
Yes it may have changed the land of Cantha forever and killed and Emporer but what did it achieve? Did it somehow help to weaken his bonds, or is he just trying to cause chaos for no reason?

In Prophecies:
Glint foretells the flameseeker prophecies and causes the sequence of events in the first chapter. Most arn't Abbaddon related, but. The Lich Lord (Vizier) after destroying Orr then gains control of the titans (which are Abbadon's servants) through use of the scepter of orr and sends them to destroy all the majors cities in the world. Although at this point he's not working with Abbadon, he's working for himself I think. When we kill him he's sucked through the gate into The Foundry of Failed Creations and there meets the the big A and is offered a place as one of his generals.

In Factions:
Not much to tell as now Shiro is working on his own too. When we kill him the envoys (rather stupidly) take his soul to the RoT where he meets Abbaddon and is offered a place as another general.

In Nightfall:
General Kyjet (by some unknown means) is a follower of the forgotten god Abbadon and teaches her pupil Varesh of him. Varesh then embraces Mr A's power and becomes a deamon. Abbadon tells her that to free him she must convert the land to torment. she performs several rituals which succeed in bringing torment half into the real world, luckily the heroes defeat the heralds before the land is consumed. Then Varesh heads to the ruins of Morah where, presumably, she can free Abbadon. But the heroes stop the ritual by killing Varesh. Phew the world is saved.
Even with Elona safe we head into the RoT to stop the problem at it's source. We kill the Lich and Shiro (again) and finally finish Abbadon.

So, after that wall of text I come to my questions. Is there some sort of connecting plan between the three chapters? In the first I can see why Abbadon would want to get revenge on Arah. His doings in Cantha are lost to me and NF is a final attempt to free himself. But surely he could have just done NF without destroying Arah or killing the Emperor? Did the moment to free himself not come along until NF, so he was just trying to cause general chaos in the world above?

And one more thing. Are the Ancient Dragons older and more powerful than the gods? The gods created Tyria didn't they, so they can't be? Wouldn't a better way to destroy Tyria be to wake the Ancient Dragons? or did Abbadon not know of their existence.

Ok, last thing. Were Dhumm and Menzies Abbadon's helpers all along, or did they only join his side in NF.

Ok, lots to discuss!

to sum it all up Abbadon hates everyone and everything and hates that no one rembers him (I think abbadon is EMO) so he wants to kill everything.